Discussion:
Why me?
Coombs, Lawrence
2013-08-22 19:50:43 UTC
Permalink
I was minding my own business when a VP tapped me on the shoulder and asked if I was the MQ guy (apparently he had seen me before). I said yes. He then dropped this question on me: What are we doing with Open Source Messaging? What products have you looked at? I sheepishly said that it was something we would be looking at. Of course he wanted to be kept abreast of what we discovered.

My question to this list is: Has anyone actively looking at or using any Open Source Messaging product they care to comment on?


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Bob Juch
2013-08-22 20:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Did you ask him if he was prepared to hire more people to support it?
The problem I've seen with open source is that instead of paying a
company for proper product support you have to do most of the work.

Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC


On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Coombs, Lawrence
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
I was minding my own business when a VP tapped me on the shoulder and asked
if I was the MQ guy (apparently he had seen me before). I said yes. He then
dropped this question on me: What are we doing with Open Source Messaging?
What products have you looked at? I sheepishly said that it was something we
would be looking at. Of course he wanted to be kept abreast of what we
discovered.
My question to this list is: Has anyone actively looking at or using any
Open Source Messaging product they care to comment on?
This message, including any attachments, is the property of Sears Holdings
Corporation and/or one of its subsidiaries. It is confidential and may
contain proprietary or legally privileged information. If you are not the
intended recipient, please delete it without reading the contents. Thank
you.
________________________________
List Archive - Manage Your List Settings - Unsubscribe
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are provided in the
Listserv General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and,
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T.Rob
2013-08-22 21:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Another possibility is to explain that without a company backing a product,
there is nobody to spend money on a comparison study. Given mostly
anecdotal evidence on many of the open-source messaging products out there,
one would be required to invest in an in-house comparison study just to get
to the point of knowing whether it is an apples to apples comparison.

As a for-instance, while at Bank of America we had a testing lab environment
for such things and subjected MQSeries (at the time) and a competitor to
destructive testing. This meant we did everything we could think of from
pulling network cables under heavy load, to killing processes under heavy
load, to yanking filesystems out from under the transport engine. Some of
the competing transports we tested dropped messages at the slightest
provocation. We got good at making MQSeries lose a message or two, but it
took hard work and the things we reported to IBM back then have been
addressed.

So if the VP wishes to pay for that level of testing you might invest a fair
amount of money only to get to a point where you either decide the
open-source messaging product you investigated isn't ready for prime-time.

Then you do the next one...and the next one.

I'm sure he'll jump at the chance to fund this. Let us know your results
and how far you get, OK?

-- T.Rob
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Bob Juch
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 16:06 PM
Subject: Re: Why me?
Did you ask him if he was prepared to hire more people to support it?
The problem I've seen with open source is that instead of paying a company
for proper product support you have to do most of the work.
Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Coombs, Lawrence
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
I was minding my own business when a VP tapped me on the shoulder
and
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
asked if I was the MQ guy (apparently he had seen me before). I said
yes. He then dropped this question on me: What are we doing with Open
Source Messaging?
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
What products have you looked at? I sheepishly said that it was
something we would be looking at. Of course he wanted to be kept
abreast of what we discovered.
My question to this list is: Has anyone actively looking at or using
any Open Source Messaging product they care to comment on?
This message, including any attachments, is the property of Sears
Holdings Corporation and/or one of its subsidiaries. It is
confidential and may contain proprietary or legally privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it
without reading the contents. Thank you.
________________________________
List Archive - Manage Your List Settings - Unsubscribe
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are provided
in the Listserv General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES Instructions
for managing your mailing list subscription are provided in the Listserv
General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html
To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and,
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Coombs, Lawrence
2013-08-22 23:57:54 UTC
Permalink
I will.

-----Original Message-----
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of T.Rob
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 4:18 PM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Why me?

Another possibility is to explain that without a company backing a product, there is nobody to spend money on a comparison study. Given mostly anecdotal evidence on many of the open-source messaging products out there, one would be required to invest in an in-house comparison study just to get to the point of knowing whether it is an apples to apples comparison.

As a for-instance, while at Bank of America we had a testing lab environment for such things and subjected MQSeries (at the time) and a competitor to destructive testing. This meant we did everything we could think of from pulling network cables under heavy load, to killing processes under heavy load, to yanking filesystems out from under the transport engine. Some of the competing transports we tested dropped messages at the slightest provocation. We got good at making MQSeries lose a message or two, but it took hard work and the things we reported to IBM back then have been addressed.

So if the VP wishes to pay for that level of testing you might invest a fair amount of money only to get to a point where you either decide the open-source messaging product you investigated isn't ready for prime-time.

Then you do the next one...and the next one.

I'm sure he'll jump at the chance to fund this. Let us know your results and how far you get, OK?

-- T.Rob
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Bob Juch
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 16:06 PM
Subject: Re: Why me?
Did you ask him if he was prepared to hire more people to support it?
The problem I've seen with open source is that instead of paying a
company for proper product support you have to do most of the work.
Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Coombs, Lawrence
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
I was minding my own business when a VP tapped me on the shoulder
and
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
asked if I was the MQ guy (apparently he had seen me before). I said
yes. He then dropped this question on me: What are we doing with
Open
Source Messaging?
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
What products have you looked at? I sheepishly said that it was
something we would be looking at. Of course he wanted to be kept
abreast of what we discovered.
My question to this list is: Has anyone actively looking at or using
any Open Source Messaging product they care to comment on?
This message, including any attachments, is the property of Sears
Holdings Corporation and/or one of its subsidiaries. It is
confidential and may contain proprietary or legally privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it
without reading the contents. Thank you.
________________________________
List Archive - Manage Your List Settings - Unsubscribe
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are
provided in the Listserv General Users Guide available at
http://www.lsoft.com
the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are provided
in the Listserv General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html
To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and, in the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are provided in the Listserv General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html

This message, including any attachments, is the property of Sears Holdings Corporation and/or one of its subsidiaries. It is confidential and may contain proprietary or legally privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it without reading the contents. Thank you.

To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and,
in the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES
Meekin, Paul
2013-08-23 08:59:35 UTC
Permalink
This is defintely true for many FOSS products but there are some that are backed by companies if you want to pay for support. I think it depends on whether it's a project that's backed by a real company, in which case they want it to be as solid as possible or if it's "community-driven" in which case it gets all the cool features but the tedious bits, like security tend to languish on the to-do list.

In recent years for various reasons we've looked at RabbitMQ, HornetQ and ZeroMQ in reasonable detail along with maybe a few cursory looks at others. Of course I'm going to have an MQ bias but I was shocked at how some really basic features were missing from some of these. Sure, they'll have some whizz-bang thing that MQ doesn't but you can usually tell the difference between an industrial-strength, mature product like MQ and something without serious corporate backing. And even then you can't be sure - anyone heard about AMQP recently?

So FOSS is clearly here to stay but it rarely is the low-cost panacea that some management types think it is for any serious work. Ask who is driving development, how long major items sit on the bug list, how easy is it to [buy] support, what features does it offer and what's missing.

Cheers,
Paul


-----Original Message-----
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of T.Rob
Sent: 22 August 2013 22:18
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Why me?

Another possibility is to explain that without a company backing a product, there is nobody to spend money on a comparison study. Given mostly anecdotal evidence on many of the open-source messaging products out there, one would be required to invest in an in-house comparison study just to get to the point of knowing whether it is an apples to apples comparison.

As a for-instance, while at Bank of America we had a testing lab environment for such things and subjected MQSeries (at the time) and a competitor to destructive testing. This meant we did everything we could think of from pulling network cables under heavy load, to killing processes under heavy load, to yanking filesystems out from under the transport engine. Some of the competing transports we tested dropped messages at the slightest provocation. We got good at making MQSeries lose a message or two, but it took hard work and the things we reported to IBM back then have been addressed.

So if the VP wishes to pay for that level of testing you might invest a fair amount of money only to get to a point where you either decide the open-source messaging product you investigated isn't ready for prime-time.

Then you do the next one...and the next one.

I'm sure he'll jump at the chance to fund this. Let us know your results and how far you get, OK?

-- T.Rob
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Bob Juch
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 16:06 PM
Subject: Re: Why me?
Did you ask him if he was prepared to hire more people to support it?
The problem I've seen with open source is that instead of paying a
company for proper product support you have to do most of the work.
Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Coombs, Lawrence
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
I was minding my own business when a VP tapped me on the shoulder
and
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
asked if I was the MQ guy (apparently he had seen me before). I said
yes. He then dropped this question on me: What are we doing with
Open
Source Messaging?
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
What products have you looked at? I sheepishly said that it was
something we would be looking at. Of course he wanted to be kept
abreast of what we discovered.
My question to this list is: Has anyone actively looking at or using
any Open Source Messaging product they care to comment on?
This message, including any attachments, is the property of Sears
Holdings Corporation and/or one of its subsidiaries. It is
confidential and may contain proprietary or legally privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it
without reading the contents. Thank you.
________________________________
List Archive - Manage Your List Settings - Unsubscribe
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are
provided in the Listserv General Users Guide available at
http://www.lsoft.com
the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are provided
in the Listserv General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html
To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and, in the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are provided in the Listserv General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html

To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and,
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Jefferson Lowrey
2013-08-23 02:35:41 UTC
Permalink
I'd thought AMQP was supposed to be a standard that specific products
implemented, not a product in and of itself?


Thank you,

Jeff Lowrey



From: "Meekin, Paul" <paul.meekin-***@public.gmane.org>
To: MQSERIES-JX7+OpRa80QeFbOYke1v4oOpTq8/***@public.gmane.org,
Date: 08/23/2013 02:00 AM
Subject: Re: [MQSERIES] Why me?
Sent by: MQSeries List <MQSERIES-JX7+OpRa80QeFbOYke1v4oOpTq8/***@public.gmane.org>



This is defintely true for many FOSS products but there are some that are
backed by companies if you want to pay for support. I think it depends on
whether it's a project that's backed by a real company, in which case they
want it to be as solid as possible or if it's "community-driven" in which
case it gets all the cool features but the tedious bits, like security
tend to languish on the to-do list.

In recent years for various reasons we've looked at RabbitMQ, HornetQ and
ZeroMQ in reasonable detail along with maybe a few cursory looks at
others. Of course I'm going to have an MQ bias but I was shocked at how
some really basic features were missing from some of these. Sure, they'll
have some whizz-bang thing that MQ doesn't but you can usually tell the
difference between an industrial-strength, mature product like MQ and
something without serious corporate backing. And even then you can't be
sure - anyone heard about AMQP recently?

So FOSS is clearly here to stay but it rarely is the low-cost panacea that
some management types think it is for any serious work. Ask who is driving
development, how long major items sit on the bug list, how easy is it to
[buy] support, what features does it offer and what's missing.

Cheers,
Paul


-----Original Message-----
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf
Of T.Rob
Sent: 22 August 2013 22:18
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Why me?

Another possibility is to explain that without a company backing a
product, there is nobody to spend money on a comparison study. Given
mostly anecdotal evidence on many of the open-source messaging products
out there, one would be required to invest in an in-house comparison study
just to get to the point of knowing whether it is an apples to apples
comparison.

As a for-instance, while at Bank of America we had a testing lab
environment for such things and subjected MQSeries (at the time) and a
competitor to destructive testing. This meant we did everything we could
think of from pulling network cables under heavy load, to killing
processes under heavy load, to yanking filesystems out from under the
transport engine. Some of the competing transports we tested dropped
messages at the slightest provocation. We got good at making MQSeries
lose a message or two, but it took hard work and the things we reported to
IBM back then have been addressed.

So if the VP wishes to pay for that level of testing you might invest a
fair amount of money only to get to a point where you either decide the
open-source messaging product you investigated isn't ready for prime-time.


Then you do the next one...and the next one.

I'm sure he'll jump at the chance to fund this. Let us know your results
and how far you get, OK?

-- T.Rob
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Bob Juch
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 16:06 PM
Subject: Re: Why me?
Did you ask him if he was prepared to hire more people to support it?
The problem I've seen with open source is that instead of paying a
company for proper product support you have to do most of the work.
Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Coombs, Lawrence
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
I was minding my own business when a VP tapped me on the shoulder
and
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
asked if I was the MQ guy (apparently he had seen me before). I said
yes. He then dropped this question on me: What are we doing with
Open
Source Messaging?
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
What products have you looked at? I sheepishly said that it was
something we would be looking at. Of course he wanted to be kept
abreast of what we discovered.
My question to this list is: Has anyone actively looking at or using
any Open Source Messaging product they care to comment on?
This message, including any attachments, is the property of Sears
Holdings Corporation and/or one of its subsidiaries. It is
confidential and may contain proprietary or legally privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it
without reading the contents. Thank you.
________________________________
List Archive - Manage Your List Settings - Unsubscribe
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are
provided in the Listserv General Users Guide available at
http://www.lsoft.com
the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are provided
in the Listserv General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html
To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and, in the
message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES Instructions for
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General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html

To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and,
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Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html



To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and,
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Meekin, Paul
2013-08-23 14:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Hi Jeff,

Yes that's right. I was referring more to the lack of penetration of products based on AMQP despite the fact that it is ostensibly backed by some very large companies.


From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Jefferson Lowrey
Sent: 23 August 2013 03:36
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Why me?

I'd thought AMQP was supposed to be a standard that specific products implemented, not a product in and of itself?


Thank you,

Jeff Lowrey



From: "Meekin, Paul" <paul.meekin-***@public.gmane.org>
To: MQSERIES-JX7+OpRa80QeFbOYke1v4oOpTq8/***@public.gmane.org,
Date: 08/23/2013 02:00 AM
Subject: Re: [MQSERIES] Why me?
Sent by: MQSeries List <MQSERIES-JX7+OpRa80QeFbOYke1v4oOpTq8/***@public.gmane.org>
________________________________



This is defintely true for many FOSS products but there are some that are backed by companies if you want to pay for support. I think it depends on whether it's a project that's backed by a real company, in which case they want it to be as solid as possible or if it's "community-driven" in which case it gets all the cool features but the tedious bits, like security tend to languish on the to-do list.

In recent years for various reasons we've looked at RabbitMQ, HornetQ and ZeroMQ in reasonable detail along with maybe a few cursory looks at others. Of course I'm going to have an MQ bias but I was shocked at how some really basic features were missing from some of these. Sure, they'll have some whizz-bang thing that MQ doesn't but you can usually tell the difference between an industrial-strength, mature product like MQ and something without serious corporate backing. And even then you can't be sure - anyone heard about AMQP recently?

So FOSS is clearly here to stay but it rarely is the low-cost panacea that some management types think it is for any serious work. Ask who is driving development, how long major items sit on the bug list, how easy is it to [buy] support, what features does it offer and what's missing.

Cheers,
Paul


-----Original Message-----
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of T.Rob
Sent: 22 August 2013 22:18
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Why me?

Another possibility is to explain that without a company backing a product, there is nobody to spend money on a comparison study. Given mostly anecdotal evidence on many of the open-source messaging products out there, one would be required to invest in an in-house comparison study just to get to the point of knowing whether it is an apples to apples comparison.

As a for-instance, while at Bank of America we had a testing lab environment for such things and subjected MQSeries (at the time) and a competitor to destructive testing. This meant we did everything we could think of from pulling network cables under heavy load, to killing processes under heavy load, to yanking filesystems out from under the transport engine. Some of the competing transports we tested dropped messages at the slightest provocation. We got good at making MQSeries lose a message or two, but it took hard work and the things we reported to IBM back then have been addressed.

So if the VP wishes to pay for that level of testing you might invest a fair amount of money only to get to a point where you either decide the open-source messaging product you investigated isn't ready for prime-time.

Then you do the next one...and the next one.

I'm sure he'll jump at the chance to fund this. Let us know your results and how far you get, OK?

-- T.Rob
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Bob Juch
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2013 16:06 PM
Subject: Re: Why me?
Did you ask him if he was prepared to hire more people to support it?
The problem I've seen with open source is that instead of paying a
company for proper product support you have to do most of the work.
Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 3:50 PM, Coombs, Lawrence
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
I was minding my own business when a VP tapped me on the shoulder
and
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
asked if I was the MQ guy (apparently he had seen me before). I said
yes. He then dropped this question on me: What are we doing with
Open
Source Messaging?
Post by Coombs, Lawrence
What products have you looked at? I sheepishly said that it was
something we would be looking at. Of course he wanted to be kept
abreast of what we discovered.
My question to this list is: Has anyone actively looking at or using
any Open Source Messaging product they care to comment on?
This message, including any attachments, is the property of Sears
Holdings Corporation and/or one of its subsidiaries. It is
confidential and may contain proprietary or legally privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it
without reading the contents. Thank you.
________________________________
List Archive - Manage Your List Settings - Unsubscribe
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are
provided in the Listserv General Users Guide available at
http://www.lsoft.com<http://www.lsoft.com/>
the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES
Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are provided
in the Listserv General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com<http://www.lsoft.com/>
Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html
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Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html

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Peter D
2013-08-23 17:29:37 UTC
Permalink
The other issue is it's not all about the major vendors. IBMs MQ for instance has quite a few ISV products that support it. ISVs generally do not support products that are proprietary or have small market segments - that would be stupid (honesty) and I wouldn't expect them to last. So you when you see other vendors supporting systems that is a good sign. Avada, BMC show support for IBM/MQ & Tibco/ems for instance. Avada has now added support for another major messaging vendor as well. That is the sign of market uptake as much as the other points mentioned by Paul & TRob below ...

/PD
Post by Meekin, Paul
This is defintely true for many FOSS products but there are some that are backed by companies if you want to pay for support. I think it depends on whether it's a project that's backed by a real company, in which case they want it to be as solid as possible or if it's "community-driven" in which case it gets all the cool features but the tedious bits, like security tend to languish on the to-do list.
In recent years for various reasons we've looked at RabbitMQ, HornetQ and ZeroMQ in reasonable detail along with maybe a few cursory looks at others. Of course I'm going to have an MQ bias but I was shocked at how some really basic features were missing from some of these. Sure, they'll have some whizz-bang thing that MQ doesn't but you can usually tell the difference between an industrial-strength, mature product like MQ and something without serious corporate backing. And even then you can't be sure - anyone heard about AMQP recently?
So FOSS is clearly here to stay but it rarely is the low-cost panacea that some management types think it is for any serious work. Ask who is driving development, how long major items sit on the bug list, how easy is it to [buy] support, what features does it offer and what's missing.
Cheers,
Paul
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 22 August 2013 22:18
Subject: Re: Why me?
Another possibility is to explain that without a company backing a product, there is nobody to spend money on a comparison study. Given mostly anecdotal evidence on many of the open-source messaging products out there, one would be required to invest in an in-house comparison study just to get to the point of knowing whether it is an apples to apples comparison.
As a for-instance, while at Bank of America we had a testing lab environment for such things and subjected MQSeries (at the time) and a competitor to
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