Discussion:
Web Services better than MQ?
Ward, Mike S
2013-11-01 21:51:47 UTC
Permalink
Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going through our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web Services. Are CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data to our touch points? Any opinions welcome.

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Jefferson Lowrey
2013-11-01 21:54:18 UTC
Permalink
HTTP is slower and less reliable than MQ, and non-transactional,

Tell them to use SOAP/JMS for their Web Services... ;-)

Thank you,

Jeff Lowrey



From: "Ward, Mike S" <mward-C+***@public.gmane.org>
To: MQSERIES-JX7+OpRa80QeFbOYke1v4oOpTq8/***@public.gmane.org,
Date: 11/01/2013 05:52 PM
Subject: [MQSERIES] Web Services better than MQ?
Sent by: MQSeries List <MQSERIES-JX7+OpRa80QeFbOYke1v4oOpTq8/***@public.gmane.org>



Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ
Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points
use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going through
our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web Services. Are
CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data to our touch
points? Any opinions welcome.

==========================
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Bob Juch
2013-11-01 22:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Mike,

Please define CICS Web Services as used in your shop. To me that's HTTP and MQ.

I'm not a big fan of WMB and have seen WMQ used inappropriately many places.

What are you trying to accomplish? I'll be happy to give you my five cents.

Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
Post by Ward, Mike S
Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going through our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web Services. Are CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data to our touch points? Any opinions welcome.
To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and,
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Peter D
2013-11-01 22:19:21 UTC
Permalink
Let me just answer with Omg.

I was with one of the very very first web services organizations back in 1998 (yeah it's that old). So I love certain aspects of web services.

However:

First, web services are not transactional unless you code like a freak to make them that way - rollbacks, apps that don't respond, assured delivery, etc. It's not just CICS it's the endpoints of the services too!

Second it's hard to determine the validity of the service at all unless you have a great repository where you can validate the biz and tech usage as well as the destinations and consumers before and after you implement them.

How do you deal with state vs non state (asynchronous) transactions?

Then they're saying broker? Omg-2.
What are they going to use to transform all of the transactions? How is that transformation engine going to integrate and communicate with the underlying delivery layer?

I think someone in your management structure read some Info-Week or CIO Today article and has no idea of the ramifications and years that a migration like that would take; never mind at the end if it leaving some very essential delivery and acknowledgment issues unresolved.

I cannot disclose but a very large P&C insurance company started down the webm services path to replace MQ - 3 years later guess what they're now growing in their environment? Yup - MQ gets another shot at the title. This is just like saying get rid of CICS -- ok and the alternative is? ...

To IBM - if you fix your license structure and stop being greedy this kind if stuff wouldn't happen anyway. We all know it comes down to corp $ and cents (not sense).

/Pete
Post by Ward, Mike S
Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going through our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web Services. Are CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data to our touch points? Any opinions welcome.
==========================
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Bob Juch
2013-11-01 22:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Peter,

You have a vested interest in seeing MQ thrive but I hope you can
admit it's not the best solution in all situations. I've seen the
"when the only tool you have is a hammer all problems look like nails"
mindset result in some terrible solutions.

There's not enough information at this point to answer Mike's question.

Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
Post by Peter D
Let me just answer with Omg.
I was with one of the very very first web services organizations back in 1998 (yeah it's that old). So I love certain aspects of web services.
First, web services are not transactional unless you code like a freak to make them that way - rollbacks, apps that don't respond, assured delivery, etc. It's not just CICS it's the endpoints of the services too!
Second it's hard to determine the validity of the service at all unless you have a great repository where you can validate the biz and tech usage as well as the destinations and consumers before and after you implement them.
How do you deal with state vs non state (asynchronous) transactions?
Then they're saying broker? Omg-2.
What are they going to use to transform all of the transactions? How is that transformation engine going to integrate and communicate with the underlying delivery layer?
I think someone in your management structure read some Info-Week or CIO Today article and has no idea of the ramifications and years that a migration like that would take; never mind at the end if it leaving some very essential delivery and acknowledgment issues unresolved.
I cannot disclose but a very large P&C insurance company started down the webm services path to replace MQ - 3 years later guess what they're now growing in their environment? Yup - MQ gets another shot at the title. This is just like saying get rid of CICS -- ok and the alternative is? ...
To IBM - if you fix your license structure and stop being greedy this kind if stuff wouldn't happen anyway. We all know it comes down to corp $ and cents (not sense).
/Pete
Post by Ward, Mike S
Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going through our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web Services. Are CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data to our touch points? Any opinions welcome.
==========================
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T.Rob
2013-11-02 02:57:50 UTC
Permalink
I think he did admit exactly that. He advised considering...

* Transactionality
* Governance
* Statefulness
* A requirement for transformation

...then said that converting between such unlike things is not simply
messaging-to-messaging. His parting shot wasn't to prefer WMQ over CICS but
specifically said to keep WMQ *and* CICS for the uses where they are
appropriate.

Sure, there's insufficient information to answer Mike's question but I can't
fault Pete for responding provisionally that "it's bigger than a breadbox."
That someone would even phrase this as "Are web services under CICS a better
messaging platform than MQ and MQ Broker?" suggests someone involved sees an
equivalency that doesn't exist, or if it exists does so on the most
superficial level. Pete asks essentially the same question you did...
"better for what, exactly?"

Did I miss something slanted toward Avada's product in all of that?

-- T.Rob
-----Original Message-----
Of Bob Juch
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 18:34 PM
Subject: Re: Web Services better than MQ?
Peter,
You have a vested interest in seeing MQ thrive but I hope you can admit
it's not the best solution in all situations. I've seen the "when the
only tool you have is a hammer all problems look like nails"
mindset result in some terrible solutions.
There's not enough information at this point to answer Mike's question.
Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
Post by Peter D
Let me just answer with Omg.
I was with one of the very very first web services organizations back
in 1998 (yeah it's that old). So I love certain aspects of web services.
Post by Peter D
First, web services are not transactional unless you code like a freak
to make them that way - rollbacks, apps that don't respond, assured
delivery, etc. It's not just CICS it's the endpoints of the services
too!
Post by Peter D
Second it's hard to determine the validity of the service at all unless
you have a great repository where you can validate the biz and tech usage
as well as the destinations and consumers before and after you implement
them.
Post by Peter D
How do you deal with state vs non state (asynchronous) transactions?
Then they're saying broker? Omg-2.
What are they going to use to transform all of the transactions? How is
that transformation engine going to integrate and communicate with the
underlying delivery layer?
Post by Peter D
I think someone in your management structure read some Info-Week or CIO
Today article and has no idea of the ramifications and years that a
migration like that would take; never mind at the end if it leaving some
very essential delivery and acknowledgment issues unresolved.
Post by Peter D
I cannot disclose but a very large P&C insurance company started down
the webm services path to replace MQ - 3 years later guess what they're
now growing in their environment? Yup - MQ gets another shot at the
title. This is just like saying get rid of CICS -- ok and the
alternative is? ...
Post by Peter D
To IBM - if you fix your license structure and stop being greedy this
kind if stuff wouldn't happen anyway. We all know it comes down to corp $
and cents (not sense).
Post by Peter D
/Pete
Post by Ward, Mike S
Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ
Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points
use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going
through our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web
Services. Are CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data
to our touch points? Any opinions welcome.
Post by Peter D
Post by Ward, Mike S
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Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this
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Post by Peter D
Post by Ward, Mike S
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d***@public.gmane.org
2013-11-03 15:57:45 UTC
Permalink
my guess is that they would own a lot more proprietary in-house written code after completing that conversion, and managers are usually more "buy" than "build" these days...

----- Original Message -----

From: "T.Rob" <t.rob-CkT6zf+urXSzW/GOMZKyElesiRL1/***@public.gmane.org>
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 10:57:50 PM
Subject: Re: Web Services better than MQ?

I think he did admit exactly that. He advised considering...

* Transactionality
* Governance
* Statefulness
* A requirement for transformation

...then said that converting between such unlike things is not simply
messaging-to-messaging. His parting shot wasn't to prefer WMQ over CICS but
specifically said to keep WMQ *and* CICS for the uses where they are
appropriate.

Sure, there's insufficient information to answer Mike's question but I can't
fault Pete for responding provisionally that "it's bigger than a breadbox."
That someone would even phrase this as "Are web services under CICS a better
messaging platform than MQ and MQ Broker?" suggests someone involved sees an
equivalency that doesn't exist, or if it exists does so on the most
superficial level. Pete asks essentially the same question you did...
"better for what, exactly?"

Did I miss something slanted toward Avada's product in all of that?

-- T.Rob
-----Original Message-----
Of Bob Juch
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 18:34 PM
Subject: Re: Web Services better than MQ?
Peter,
You have a vested interest in seeing MQ thrive but I hope you can admit
it's not the best solution in all situations. I've seen the "when the
only tool you have is a hammer all problems look like nails"
mindset result in some terrible solutions.
There's not enough information at this point to answer Mike's question.
Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
Post by Peter D
Let me just answer with Omg.
I was with one of the very very first web services organizations back
in 1998 (yeah it's that old). So I love certain aspects of web services.
Post by Peter D
First, web services are not transactional unless you code like a freak
to make them that way - rollbacks, apps that don't respond, assured
delivery, etc. It's not just CICS it's the endpoints of the services
too!
Post by Peter D
Second it's hard to determine the validity of the service at all unless
you have a great repository where you can validate the biz and tech usage
as well as the destinations and consumers before and after you implement
them.
Post by Peter D
How do you deal with state vs non state (asynchronous) transactions?
Then they're saying broker? Omg-2.
What are they going to use to transform all of the transactions? How is
that transformation engine going to integrate and communicate with the
underlying delivery layer?
Post by Peter D
I think someone in your management structure read some Info-Week or CIO
Today article and has no idea of the ramifications and years that a
migration like that would take; never mind at the end if it leaving some
very essential delivery and acknowledgment issues unresolved.
Post by Peter D
I cannot disclose but a very large P&C insurance company started down
the webm services path to replace MQ - 3 years later guess what they're
now growing in their environment? Yup - MQ gets another shot at the
title. This is just like saying get rid of CICS -- ok and the
alternative is? ...
Post by Peter D
To IBM - if you fix your license structure and stop being greedy this
kind if stuff wouldn't happen anyway. We all know it comes down to corp $
and cents (not sense).
Post by Peter D
/Pete
Post by Ward, Mike S
Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ
Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points
use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going
through our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web
Services. Are CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data
to our touch points? Any opinions welcome.
Post by Peter D
Post by Ward, Mike S
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Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this
message by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are
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information is strictly prohibited.
Post by Peter D
Post by Ward, Mike S
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To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and,
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Ward, Mike S
2013-11-04 15:59:01 UTC
Permalink
CICS has a facility called web services which if the transaction is defined as a server it will listen on a given port and a client can connect to that port and request the service using soap messaging. A transaction in CICS can also be setup as a client and make service requests to a server from CICS, again using soap. We are not trying to accomplish anything. I have just heard that some faction in MIS is wanting to get rid of MQ and WMB and use web services in place of them. I am not sure why other than they feel more comfortable using web services from the Windows environment than using MQ client calls. I think it's a bad idea, so I thought I would ask the MQ community.

-----Original Message-----
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Bob Juch
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 5:02 PM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Web Services better than MQ?

Mike,

Please define CICS Web Services as used in your shop. To me that's HTTP and MQ.

I'm not a big fan of WMB and have seen WMQ used inappropriately many places.

What are you trying to accomplish? I'll be happy to give you my five cents.

Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
Post by Ward, Mike S
Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going through our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web Services. Are CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data to our touch points? Any opinions welcome.
To unsubscribe, write to LISTSERV-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org and, in the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES Instructions for managing your mailing list subscription are provided in the Listserv General Users Guide available at http://www.lsoft.com
Archive: http://listserv.meduniwien.ac.at/archives/mqser-l.html

==========================
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this message by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

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Ward, Mike S
2013-11-04 16:01:08 UTC
Permalink
Thank you. This is the kind of ammo I need.

-----Original Message-----
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Peter D
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 5:19 PM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Web Services better than MQ?

Let me just answer with Omg.

I was with one of the very very first web services organizations back in 1998 (yeah it's that old). So I love certain aspects of web services.

However:

First, web services are not transactional unless you code like a freak to make them that way - rollbacks, apps that don't respond, assured delivery, etc. It's not just CICS it's the endpoints of the services too!

Second it's hard to determine the validity of the service at all unless you have a great repository where you can validate the biz and tech usage as well as the destinations and consumers before and after you implement them.

How do you deal with state vs non state (asynchronous) transactions?

Then they're saying broker? Omg-2.
What are they going to use to transform all of the transactions? How is that transformation engine going to integrate and communicate with the underlying delivery layer?

I think someone in your management structure read some Info-Week or CIO Today article and has no idea of the ramifications and years that a migration like that would take; never mind at the end if it leaving some very essential delivery and acknowledgment issues unresolved.

I cannot disclose but a very large P&C insurance company started down the webm services path to replace MQ - 3 years later guess what they're now growing in their environment? Yup - MQ gets another shot at the title. This is just like saying get rid of CICS -- ok and the alternative is? ...

To IBM - if you fix your license structure and stop being greedy this kind if stuff wouldn't happen anyway. We all know it comes down to corp $ and cents (not sense).

/Pete
Post by Ward, Mike S
Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going through our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web Services. Are CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data to our touch points? Any opinions welcome.
==========================
This email, and any files transmitted with it, is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee, you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this message by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.
the message body (not the subject), write: SIGNOFF MQSERIES
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Bob Juch
2013-11-04 16:29:40 UTC
Permalink
Mike,

There's a lot more to CICS Web services than just SOAP; that's why I asked.

I'd say whether or not using SOAP is better than MQ depends on if the
client application needs it. If your application doesn't need queuing
there's no need to use MQ. There's a lot of overhead with both
however. I haven't done research to determine it but think using the
CICS Transaction Gateway might give you better performance. I wouldn't
use SOAP unless there was a canned application on the client that
required it.

There's no need to have all applications use just one method. Use the
right tool for the right problem.

Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
Post by Ward, Mike S
CICS has a facility called web services which if the transaction is defined as a server it will listen on a given port and a client can connect to that port and request the service using soap messaging. A transaction in CICS can also be setup as a client and make service requests to a server from CICS, again using soap. We are not trying to accomplish anything. I have just heard that some faction in MIS is wanting to get rid of MQ and WMB and use web services in place of them. I am not sure why other than they feel more comfortable using web services from the Windows environment than using MQ client calls. I think it's a bad idea, so I thought I would ask the MQ community.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2013 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Web Services better than MQ?
Mike,
Please define CICS Web Services as used in your shop. To me that's HTTP and MQ.
I'm not a big fan of WMB and have seen WMQ used inappropriately many places.
What are you trying to accomplish? I'll be happy to give you my five cents.
Bob Juch
Juch Services LLC
Post by Ward, Mike S
Are web services under CICS a better messaging platform than MQ and MQ Broker? We are MQ V7.1, Broker V8 and CICS 4.2. All of our touch points use MQ and broker for messaging. There seems to be an ripple going through our department to get rid of MQ and Broker and use CICS Web Services. Are CICS Web services better suited for serving messaging data to our touch points? Any opinions welcome.
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