Discussion:
NSA stuff and MQ
Meekin, Paul
2013-09-16 07:55:06 UTC
Permalink
Well it's Monday morning and summer is definitely over [where I am] so I thought I'd throw this one out there.

What do people think - is MQ compromised by NSA backdoors? Is it the sort of thing they'd be interested in? If not, would it be a good way for the more nefarious elements to communicate with each other?


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T.Rob
2013-09-16 12:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Hi Paul,



MQ uses TLS and does so in a way that is safer than HTTP servers. An HTTP
server is meant to be stateless so the TLS and actionable data arrive
together. That is why HTTP was susceptible to the SSL renegotiation exploit
and WMQ wasn't. As long as you use a good key length and a strong cipher MQ
should be no more susceptible to breaking the cipher than anything else, and
less susceptible than an HTTP server.



The Snowden reports say that the NSA have unencrypted access to traffic
going through the big providers. At the same time, those companies all deny
that the NSA have access to their servers. While these appear to be
contradictory, it makes perfect sense to me. NSA has been complaining that
the Internet is going dark. Not Google going dark or Skype going dark, but
the *Internet* going dark. They don't want to have to set up shop at every
big provider. They don't have funds to do that and even if they did it
would let all sorts of traffic through.



So let's say instead that the Patriot Act the US CAs into giving them access
to root or even an intermediate signer. Then all they need to do is set up
shop on the backbone servers such that the SSL and TLS sessions terminate
there, then proxy the connection back to the provider. Well, we already
*know* they are in the backbone servers. This news broke a decade ago. But
to make the scheme most effective, it'd be useful to consolidate the
certificates to be spoofed. One good way to do that would be to have all
the CAs deprecate the old certs in favor of the new ones. For example, NIST
might deprecate 1024 bit certs which in turn would influence policy across
the board and CAs would follow suit. Then as everyone moved to upgrade to
2048 and 4096 bit certs, the NSA's signer would be valid for not just folks
like Google and Facebook, but for banks and insurance companies and online
stores and anyone else using a commercial CA in the US. So if you see these
actions by NIST and the CAs you might wonder if. oh wait. too late. Already
happened.



The real weakness in TLS is the people managing the certs. As a group, we
suck at it. A couple assignments back I worked for a client who are a fund
manager and who have among the tightest security of all customers I've ever
assessed. Even this company were creating the private keys in one place,
them moving them out to the hosts where they would be used. Another company
I worked with had set up an internal CA. This is a very large consumer
lending company. Their CA did not assure unique DNs or serials, did not use
intermediate signers, and was on some guy's laptop which left the building.
Thanks to the CA Browser forum rules changing you can't have a CN=QMGRNAME
anymore and there's been a migration to self-signed certs. I have now had
two customers where I found them trusting self-signed certs that were
configured as root signers, and I expect this problem to grow for years
before it gets better.



With TLS and SSL you need only the signer of the remote node but with SMIME,
WMQ AMS, PGP and any scheme where you encrypt data at rest for a remote
recipient, you need their signer chain *and* their personal public key. As
more and more people begin to use these technologies, and as more and more
of them use self-signed certs, many more self-signed effective-root certs
will be lurking about in trust stores and KDBs. At that point the person
holding that cert can impersonate any other for SSL, TLS and signed
messages. Fortunately, for encrypted messages the public and private keys
can't be MITM'ed.



And as long as we have our tinfoil hats on, consider that a giant data
facility with yottabytes of storage probably doesn't exist to escrow the
world's traffic until it can be decrypted, as many have postulated. As a
rule, nobody attacks the protocol itself. It is so ingrained in security
folks that we not only don't defend against that, we don't generally
consider attacking the protocol as a valid approach. In particular, the
keyspace for RSA is so huge that brute force attacks are impossible and
computational attacks are infeasible. BUT if you could introduce subtle
weaknesses in pseudo random number generators, the effective keyspace could
be shrunk to a fraction of the possible space. The symptoms would include
many duplicate public keys in a system where that is statistically
impossible, but hell, nobody over looks at those. Until last year, that is,
when researchers scanned the internet and found a startlingly high rate of
dupe keys in use. And there were those pesky unconfirmed reports of the NSA
influencing the code base of certain open-source libraries. If in fact it
were possible to shrink the keyspace, a couple of yottabytes would be the
right size for the world's biggest rainbow table which, if you had such a
thing, would allow you to see all the traffic of even self-signed certs in
the clear in real time.



I would think the nefarious actors would generate a non-standard key size to
try to keep out of the rainbow table, then use something like Pidgin with
Perfect Forward Secrecy implemented rather than any commercial product. And
if they were worried about MITM, they'd use something like AMS or SMIME
which mitigates interception. WMQ AMS fits the bill in that respect but is
relatively untested compared to HTTP and other traditionally Internet-facing
servers. Furthermore, the product itself is still in transition from
open-by-default to secure-by-default and has a long way to go. (For
example, see my previous email about how the ability to use TLS connections
from MFT Explorer disappeared and nobody - either customer or lab - seems to
have noticed.) Nefarious actors would probably prefer to use something
which has been hammered on from a security perspective, which has a proven
effective secure-by-default posture, mature tools for penetration testing,
and a known secure baseline configuration. WMQ has a way to go on these as
well. When it does the issues with users not managing it correctly will be
mitigated to a great extent but they will remain the weak link.



-- T.Rob







From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
Meekin, Paul
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:55 AM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: NSA stuff and MQ



Well it's Monday morning and summer is definitely over [where I am] so I
thought I'd throw this one out there.



What do people think - is MQ compromised by NSA backdoors? Is it the sort of
thing they'd be interested in? If not, would it be a good way for the more
nefarious elements to communicate with each other?





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Meekin, Paul
2013-09-16 13:17:17 UTC
Permalink
Hi T. Rob,

Great stuff as ever - thanks.

I have never really understood why it's so difficult to roll out certificates in a secure and simple manner. I don't think the concept of a PKI is any further forward now than when I first encountered it some 13 years ago and it was pretty unwieldy then! Client certs are virtually unheard of for example other than fairly specialist applications. It hadn't occurred to me how an increase in the use of self-signed certs along with AMS-style sharing would enable these attacks so yet another reason to avoid them. Personally where necessary I find it easier to create my own CA with OpenSSL and generate them myself - which leads me on to...

Random number generators and Open Source. I saw some comments on Bruce Schneier's blog about how these key space-reduction techniques could be "hidden" in open source code with e.g. long, highly complex conditional statements and a subtle "& 0x00" to nullify a few digits. It will be interesting to see if anything comes out about this in the near future following some exhaustive code reviews (compilers too of course).

So as long as we're not planning a major caper I guess we're ok with MQ (notwithstanding a dedicated back-door - not the first time IBM have worked with NSA).

Cheers,
Paul


From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of T.Rob
Sent: 16 September 2013 13:08
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: NSA stuff and MQ

Hi Paul,

MQ uses TLS and does so in a way that is safer than HTTP servers. An HTTP server is meant to be stateless so the TLS and actionable data arrive together. That is why HTTP was susceptible to the SSL renegotiation exploit and WMQ wasn't. As long as you use a good key length and a strong cipher MQ should be no more susceptible to breaking the cipher than anything else, and less susceptible than an HTTP server.

The Snowden reports say that the NSA have unencrypted access to traffic going through the big providers. At the same time, those companies all deny that the NSA have access to their servers. While these appear to be contradictory, it makes perfect sense to me. NSA has been complaining that the Internet is going dark. Not Google going dark or Skype going dark, but the *Internet* going dark. They don't want to have to set up shop at every big provider. They don't have funds to do that and even if they did it would let all sorts of traffic through.

So let's say instead that the Patriot Act the US CAs into giving them access to root or even an intermediate signer. Then all they need to do is set up shop on the backbone servers such that the SSL and TLS sessions terminate there, then proxy the connection back to the provider. Well, we already *know* they are in the backbone servers. This news broke a decade ago. But to make the scheme most effective, it'd be useful to consolidate the certificates to be spoofed. One good way to do that would be to have all the CAs deprecate the old certs in favor of the new ones. For example, NIST might deprecate 1024 bit certs which in turn would influence policy across the board and CAs would follow suit. Then as everyone moved to upgrade to 2048 and 4096 bit certs, the NSA's signer would be valid for not just folks like Google and Facebook, but for banks and insurance companies and online stores and anyone else using a commercial CA in the US. So if you see these actions by NIST and the CAs you might wonder if... oh wait... too late. Already happened.

The real weakness in TLS is the people managing the certs. As a group, we suck at it. A couple assignments back I worked for a client who are a fund manager and who have among the tightest security of all customers I've ever assessed. Even this company were creating the private keys in one place, them moving them out to the hosts where they would be used. Another company I worked with had set up an internal CA. This is a very large consumer lending company. Their CA did not assure unique DNs or serials, did not use intermediate signers, and was on some guy's laptop which left the building. Thanks to the CA Browser forum rules changing you can't have a CN=QMGRNAME anymore and there's been a migration to self-signed certs. I have now had two customers where I found them trusting self-signed certs that were configured as root signers, and I expect this problem to grow for years before it gets better.

With TLS and SSL you need only the signer of the remote node but with SMIME, WMQ AMS, PGP and any scheme where you encrypt data at rest for a remote recipient, you need their signer chain *and* their personal public key. As more and more people begin to use these technologies, and as more and more of them use self-signed certs, many more self-signed effective-root certs will be lurking about in trust stores and KDBs. At that point the person holding that cert can impersonate any other for SSL, TLS and signed messages. Fortunately, for encrypted messages the public and private keys can't be MITM'ed.

And as long as we have our tinfoil hats on, consider that a giant data facility with yottabytes of storage probably doesn't exist to escrow the world's traffic until it can be decrypted, as many have postulated. As a rule, nobody attacks the protocol itself. It is so ingrained in security folks that we not only don't defend against that, we don't generally consider attacking the protocol as a valid approach. In particular, the keyspace for RSA is so huge that brute force attacks are impossible and computational attacks are infeasible. BUT if you could introduce subtle weaknesses in pseudo random number generators, the effective keyspace could be shrunk to a fraction of the possible space. The symptoms would include many duplicate public keys in a system where that is statistically impossible, but hell, nobody over looks at those. Until last year, that is, when researchers scanned the internet and found a startlingly high rate of dupe keys in use. And there were those pesky unconfirmed reports of the NSA influencing the code base of certain open-source libraries. If in fact it were possible to shrink the keyspace, a couple of yottabytes would be the right size for the world's biggest rainbow table which, if you had such a thing, would allow you to see all the traffic of even self-signed certs in the clear in real time.

I would think the nefarious actors would generate a non-standard key size to try to keep out of the rainbow table, then use something like Pidgin with Perfect Forward Secrecy implemented rather than any commercial product. And if they were worried about MITM, they'd use something like AMS or SMIME which mitigates interception. WMQ AMS fits the bill in that respect but is relatively untested compared to HTTP and other traditionally Internet-facing servers. Furthermore, the product itself is still in transition from open-by-default to secure-by-default and has a long way to go. (For example, see my previous email about how the ability to use TLS connections from MFT Explorer disappeared and nobody - either customer or lab - seems to have noticed.) Nefarious actors would probably prefer to use something which has been hammered on from a security perspective, which has a proven effective secure-by-default posture, mature tools for penetration testing, and a known secure baseline configuration. WMQ has a way to go on these as well. When it does the issues with users not managing it correctly will be mitigated to a great extent but they will remain the weak link.

-- T.Rob



From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Meekin, Paul
Sent: Monday, September 16, 2013 3:55 AM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org<mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/***@public.gmane.orgAC.AT>
Subject: NSA stuff and MQ

Well it's Monday morning and summer is definitely over [where I am] so I thought I'd throw this one out there.

What do people think - is MQ compromised by NSA backdoors? Is it the sort of thing they'd be interested in? If not, would it be a good way for the more nefarious elements to communicate with each other?


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