T.Rob
2013-11-14 02:38:08 UTC
Hi Peter,
(http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/wmqv7/v7r5/topic/com.ibm.mq.ref.dev.doc/q
100080_.htm ) and you find the durability options.
I guess I never found the docs deficient because they act like I expect they
should. Durable/non-durable are part of the JMS specification and
managed/unmanaged is part of the WMQ provider-specific implementation. The
durable/non-durable behaves as per the spec and won't change. Whether a sub
is "managed" or not just determines whether the QMgr manages the queue or a
pre-defined queue is used. That's true regardless of what kind of
subscription is used and that behavior won't change. The two are completely
different things. I would agree the docs could be better but I wouldn't
worry about them changing their behavior. One is bound by the JMS spec and
the other is bound by IBM's definition of "managed subscription." Although
they intersect, they are independent of each other.
As for the other, because an administrative subscription *must* exist absent
of an attached process, it *must* be durable. A non-durable admin
subscription would vanish the moment it was created. But this has no
bearing on managed/unmanaged, nor should any behavior of those be inferred
from it.
This reminds me of the conversation with Neil during the Redbook residency
when we discussed whether a SDR could talk to a CLUSRCVR. Neither of us had
tried it. In my case it was because I'd always assumed it wouldn't work and
in Neil's it was because he'd always assumed it would. So we tested and
Neil was right.
-- T.Rob
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
Potkay, Peter M (CTO Architecture + Engineering)
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 18:21 PM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Is there such a thing as an unmanaged, non durable subscriber?
T.Rob,
I didn't see anything in that link that distinguishes between durable and
non durable for an unmanaged subscription.
OK, there is this:
"To use a specific queue, you must associate it with the subscription when
the subscription is created. You can do this in two ways:
.By using the DEFINE SUB MQSC command and provided that command with the
name of a queue object."
But it never talks about durable versus non durable. However that did get me
to look at the doc for the DEFINE SUB MQSC command,
http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/wmqv7/v7r5/topic/com.ibm.mq.ref.adm.doc/q0
85760_.htm
"Use DEFINE SUB to allow an existing application to participate in a
publish/subscribe application by allowing the administrative creation of a
durable subscription."
So I guess there's my documentation. I can infer from that sentence that non
durable subscriptions do not apply for administratively created
subscriptions.
It would be nice to read at least that for subscriptions made by the MQSUB
verb where an unmanaged connection is desired.
Peter Potkay
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
T.Rob
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:49 PM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Is there such a thing as an unmanaged, non durable subscriber?
If you provide a queue handle during the MQSUB call, the QMgr does not
manage the destination for you. The subscription can be durable or
non-durable.
http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/wmqv7/v7r5/topic/com.ibm.mq.ref.dev.doc/q1
01930_.htm
-- T.Rob
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
Potkay, Peter M (CTO Architecture + Engineering)
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 17:37 PM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Is there such a thing as an unmanaged, non durable subscriber?
Is there such a thing as an unmanaged, non durable subscriber? If I
predefine a queue for the consumer (note I didn't use the word
'subscriber'), and make an administrative subscription to that queue, this
would be considered an unmanaged subscription - the QM is not creating a
dynamic queue for me.
So is the whole durable versus non durable conversation moot for an
unmanaged subscription?
Non durable means if the QM notices the subscriber go away it stops sending
messages to it. But if it's a predefined queue for an administratively
created subscription, there is no subscriber to watch over, so it has to act
like a durable subscription and can only act like a durable. Even if the
queue is not open by anything, will new topics continue to arrive, which
means its "durable"?
I looked in the InfoCenter and all I could find was:
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/wmqv7/v7r0/topic/com.ibm.mq.amqnar.
doc/ps10432_.htm
"The unmanaged pattern is more commonly associated with durable
subscriptions than non-durable. Typically the lifecycle of a subscription
created by an unmanaged subscriber is independent of the lifecycle of the
subscribing application itself. By making the subscription durable the
subscription receives publications even when no subscribing application is
active."
But it never talks about making it non durable in this scenario. It would be
nice to see it say that makes no sense you dummy. Or, if you make an
administrative subscription non durable to a pre defined queue, here's what
happens if the queue has an IRPOCS of zero.
Yeah, I could play around with it, but if its not documented I can't bank on
the behavior not changing.
Peter Potkay
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From the link I sent, drill down to MQSD, the subscription descriptor, then
to the Options field within that(http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/wmqv7/v7r5/topic/com.ibm.mq.ref.dev.doc/q
100080_.htm ) and you find the durability options.
I guess I never found the docs deficient because they act like I expect they
should. Durable/non-durable are part of the JMS specification and
managed/unmanaged is part of the WMQ provider-specific implementation. The
durable/non-durable behaves as per the spec and won't change. Whether a sub
is "managed" or not just determines whether the QMgr manages the queue or a
pre-defined queue is used. That's true regardless of what kind of
subscription is used and that behavior won't change. The two are completely
different things. I would agree the docs could be better but I wouldn't
worry about them changing their behavior. One is bound by the JMS spec and
the other is bound by IBM's definition of "managed subscription." Although
they intersect, they are independent of each other.
As for the other, because an administrative subscription *must* exist absent
of an attached process, it *must* be durable. A non-durable admin
subscription would vanish the moment it was created. But this has no
bearing on managed/unmanaged, nor should any behavior of those be inferred
from it.
This reminds me of the conversation with Neil during the Redbook residency
when we discussed whether a SDR could talk to a CLUSRCVR. Neither of us had
tried it. In my case it was because I'd always assumed it wouldn't work and
in Neil's it was because he'd always assumed it would. So we tested and
Neil was right.
-- T.Rob
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
Potkay, Peter M (CTO Architecture + Engineering)
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 18:21 PM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Is there such a thing as an unmanaged, non durable subscriber?
T.Rob,
I didn't see anything in that link that distinguishes between durable and
non durable for an unmanaged subscription.
OK, there is this:
"To use a specific queue, you must associate it with the subscription when
the subscription is created. You can do this in two ways:
.By using the DEFINE SUB MQSC command and provided that command with the
name of a queue object."
But it never talks about durable versus non durable. However that did get me
to look at the doc for the DEFINE SUB MQSC command,
http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/wmqv7/v7r5/topic/com.ibm.mq.ref.adm.doc/q0
85760_.htm
"Use DEFINE SUB to allow an existing application to participate in a
publish/subscribe application by allowing the administrative creation of a
durable subscription."
So I guess there's my documentation. I can infer from that sentence that non
durable subscriptions do not apply for administratively created
subscriptions.
It would be nice to read at least that for subscriptions made by the MQSUB
verb where an unmanaged connection is desired.
Peter Potkay
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
T.Rob
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 5:49 PM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: Is there such a thing as an unmanaged, non durable subscriber?
If you provide a queue handle during the MQSUB call, the QMgr does not
manage the destination for you. The subscription can be durable or
non-durable.
http://pic.dhe.ibm.com/infocenter/wmqv7/v7r5/topic/com.ibm.mq.ref.dev.doc/q1
01930_.htm
-- T.Rob
From: MQSeries List [mailto:MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of
Potkay, Peter M (CTO Architecture + Engineering)
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 17:37 PM
To: MQSERIES-0lvw86wZMd9k/bWDasg6f+***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Is there such a thing as an unmanaged, non durable subscriber?
Is there such a thing as an unmanaged, non durable subscriber? If I
predefine a queue for the consumer (note I didn't use the word
'subscriber'), and make an administrative subscription to that queue, this
would be considered an unmanaged subscription - the QM is not creating a
dynamic queue for me.
So is the whole durable versus non durable conversation moot for an
unmanaged subscription?
Non durable means if the QM notices the subscriber go away it stops sending
messages to it. But if it's a predefined queue for an administratively
created subscription, there is no subscriber to watch over, so it has to act
like a durable subscription and can only act like a durable. Even if the
queue is not open by anything, will new topics continue to arrive, which
means its "durable"?
I looked in the InfoCenter and all I could find was:
http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/wmqv7/v7r0/topic/com.ibm.mq.amqnar.
doc/ps10432_.htm
"The unmanaged pattern is more commonly associated with durable
subscriptions than non-durable. Typically the lifecycle of a subscription
created by an unmanaged subscriber is independent of the lifecycle of the
subscribing application itself. By making the subscription durable the
subscription receives publications even when no subscribing application is
active."
But it never talks about making it non durable in this scenario. It would be
nice to see it say that makes no sense you dummy. Or, if you make an
administrative subscription non durable to a pre defined queue, here's what
happens if the queue has an IRPOCS of zero.
Yeah, I could play around with it, but if its not documented I can't bank on
the behavior not changing.
Peter Potkay
************************************************************
This communication, including attachments, is for the exclusive use of
addressee and may contain proprietary, confidential and/or privileged
information. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, copying,
disclosure, dissemination or distribution is strictly prohibited. If you
are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by
return e-mail, delete this communication and destroy all copies.
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are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by
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